Clues to Newton's missing Castle may be out there!

[She]

Hi All,
Just come back from a mini break in Dorset and was very privileged to be taken on a detailed tour of Corfe Castle by a professor of Archeology from Oxford University. Avid history fans from this site would have loved it, because he was so fascinating to listen to and taught me loads about history. As an example... how to recognise ancient mass graves (as opposed to burial mounds). He pointed one out to me which he had partially excavated. From the aerial view of the castle the distinct greener grass in the shape of a perfect rectangle was easy to make out. As one of the top 6 kings castles in England, worth a visit. There was also a circle very similar in size and shape to the one Bob spotted. He said this was probably the site of a siege castle (another castle built with the sole purpose of housing the troops to attack the main castle).Here is a link to a website about it:-

http://www.thedorsetpage.com/locations/place/c350.htm

Anyway, aside from being a leading forenstic archeologist he was also a bit of an expert on the Normans...although I got the distinct impression that Saxon finds where far more of interest to him. I told him a little about our Newton Le Willows and he did contribute some snippets which may be of interest to members of this site.

Corfe Castle (possibly like our own former Barony castle) was now a ruin of its former self, however he told me that this was not down to decay or the ravages of time. He said that Cromwells Troops did all they could to destroy it (using gunpowder)as such castles were symbols of Royalty and had to be removed from site as part of the whole anti Royalist thing that the roundheads had going on at the time. He said it was highly likely that if Cromwells troops had passed through Newton, they would have executed the same wrath on our castle.
Of course the villagers of Corfe (a Norman Royal Castle) did what many other peasants would have done. They “acquired” the loose brick rubble from the Castle to construct more houses in the Village. The Prof pointed out that you can always tell Norman stonemasonry as opposed to the work of a British Stone mason; because the chisel marks in the stone run diagonal (many of the Normans brought their own stone masons over with them from France). In contrast, British stonemasons tend to leave horizontal chisel marks (or vertical if the stone is placed on its side).

Walking through the village after being educated about Norman stone masonry, it was easy to recognise houses with re-used castle stones and the trademark Norman chisel lines which ran from corner to corner.

So what this is leading to, is a request (maybe challenge even)....to ask if any members of this site can locate any Norman stone which who knows....most probably came from the ruins of the original castle. It would be great if we could find some.
Also of note, was the fact that the Normans had a tendency to build their castle on previous Saxon sites. Saxon walls could be easily defined as different from Norman walls as the bricks were placed in a Herringbone pattern, so if anyone comes across an old wall at the end of your garden that looks like this – please do let us know.
Be on "brick alert" if you have the time y'all?


Out of interest – here are some photos of Saxon walls-
http://www.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&rl ... 45&bih=478

[She]

After a co-incidental meeting with an Oxford professor in Dorset, I now believe that I may have found Newton’s Barony Castle.

Not only this, but if I am correct – then part of it is still standing and it has been right underneath our noses the whole time. Isn’t that normally the case?

I would like to ask Steven if the area could fit in with Keurdon’s description of the ruin, but none the less I am very convinced I have strong evidence in its favour.

I have had a look around Newton today to see if I could find the signs of Norman stone masonry as described earlier in this post, (I am on holiday this week so I had the time)! Alas I found nothing of note and ended up at St Peters church. Looking at the stone of St Peters (following my ad hoc tuition on chisel marks); I could clearly see that in historical terms St Peters looks quite modern. I don’t think you even need to be an expert on masonry to come to the same conclusions. As you would expect, the stone consists of fine and delicate English horizontal marks and also it just looks fairly new and clean.
Beneath the cemetery of St Peters (above the Stocks) you can see the wall is much older. The chisel marks were made with a much blunter instrument and the erosion on the stone gives away its age. However, just like the Church above this wall – the chisel marks are horizontal. They were made by an Englishman.

Then walk around the corner into Willow Park and turn an immediate right down into the sunken land behind the park keeper’s cottage. It is not pleasant at this time of year as it’s heavily overgrown with nettles, and as I only had my shorts & flip flops on I wasn’t going to go too deep into the jungle.

However, built of the ledge of sandstone bedrock (a fairly typical venue for a Norman building) was what I believe could be the oldest wall in Newton. On inspection of the wall, the chisel marks ran diagonal. This was, (according to a Prof of archaeology at Oxford) only be Norman.

Staring up at the wall, of which a considerable amount still stands – I suddenly started to look at this as a castle and everything just made sense.

All this time we have been looking for a hill because we know the Normans liked their castles in positions of height and prominence. However standing in this sunken area (which who knows...could have been a moat), I recalled what the Prof told me. When I was in the Norman castle in Dorset, we were standing on what we thought was the floor, but in fact 850 years ago we would have been stood in the upper chambers. The actual floor was actually many feet beneath us.
I think we all have a tendency to view our landscape as it is now and today. However the Prof reminded me that the reason archaeology has to dig down, is that many centuries of dust and debris piles on top of the ground therefore raising it over time. Given this theory, it is possible that the lower area beneath this possible Norman wall, may in fact been much lower 800+ years ago, and the castle may have looked high above the surrounding area perched on a sandstone Hill.
Not only that, but there is a brook nearby, which pre being damned may have been quite a river. It could even be that this sunken area was once flooded adding a natural defence to the Castle.

Its location would have been in the epicentre of old Newton and on the major roadway junctions, all of which makes sense.
Steven has often mentioned the fact that the roads around this area (now known as Mill Lane, Church St and Southworth Rd) – would all have looked different way back in time. So maybe it is possible that walking from the direction of the old watermill that one would have seen the ruins of this castle just before reaching St Peters. There is a brook in the area (as just mentioned) and maybe there was a bridge over it much nearer to the junction where all these roads meet.
If you walk along the top of what may have been a castle (now in Willow Park) and think of it in those terms, it all makes sense. There are several stone stair cases leading down to this lower area. All over the park, traces of Norman rubble seems to have been re-deployed as ornamental garden rockery. If you look at the base of the lake where all the ducks and swans gather, you will even see that some of this old stone has been used to line the upper parts of the lake.

Finally, aside from the fact that the masonry on this old wall appears to be Norman, let’s not forget the exit from the Lake onto Mere Road. The Archway here may be a folly, or may be a replica of what was in the grounds at some former time. It is without doubt a Norman Arch and has the characteristic tell tale shape.

As added interest, the Prof told me that most Norman castles had what was referred to as a “weak side”. This was the area most susceptible to attack and invasion. It was not uncommon to have an outpost or watch tower to guard the weaker side of the castle. There were often castles outside castles. If our Castle was in Willow Park near the Church, then the raised protected side would have been that facing both Southworth Road and Church Street. The flatter plateau of the castle would have been more vulnerable faced erm.....Castle Hill.

Yep Castle Hill - a small mound which we believe once played host to a Norman fortress. This would fit in exactly with what the Prof told me. Could Castle Hill have been a 2nd “look out” to stand guard over the main Castle not too far away?
Given that no other area of Newton Le Willows I can find at this moment of time, seems to have a Norman stone wall, a Norman archway, a high ridge on which to stand, a possible 2nd look out castle ....plus rubble all over the nearby vicinity – I think Willow Park (just next to St Peters Church) is a serious contender.

Any thoughts anyone?

[bob]

She, i am surprised that you did not take any pictures yourself! why not try and mark the area you speak of on an old map?
i will put one up for you to make it easy.
Bob

st peters.jpg

[She]

I cannot figure out how to draw on Picassa, so if you can send me some brief instructions it may help for the future Bob.

However the wall (as shown on the map), ends under the letter "e" in the word "The" in the cropped area I have attached below. It then swings to the left towards the Obelisk and starts under the last "l" of the word Boll 102.3. Apologies if it doesn't say this but the word is hard to read.

It is a definate wall even on this old map. What I can't understand is, if it wasn't the wall to some former ancient building (and I can accept that stones can be moved and just because the wall contains Norman stones, does not make it a Norman wall) - then what was its purpose?

Question and thoughts to ponder:- The paths in Willow Park if entering to the right of St Peters, are much higher off the ground than the road below (Church St) and the sunken area I will refer to as the "Park Keepers grounds". I call it this just to aid to the description of this area, as it is the general area behind the former park keepers cottage.

IF the wall I describe is some sort of retaining wall, then why create it? The paths in the park are already naturally high off the ground as they were built on a ridge of sandstone bedrock anyway. So why make the paths even higher by building yet more walls on top of the bedrock and then going to the trouble of filling the space in with hardcore and soil, for no other reason but to create paths that were higher than nature intended. I go off the theory that people don't go to a lot of effort , using time and money - without some sort of reason. I just can't believe that this old wall (and even if it isn't Norman, it is probably the oldest wall still standing in Newton) was nothing more than a retaining wall and a folly. I personally believe this is the wall of an old building of sorts.

I didn't take photos because I forgot my camera Bob, but I will take some later on today. Its a bit of a jungle down there at the moment.

[She]

I have been looking through the online gallery to try and find some old photos to show this area in more detail. I think the problem is however, that the era I am talking about is way way earlier than any of the oldest maps or oldest portraits/ photos we have of this area.

I am talking about a Castle constructed some time after the Norman conquest of 1066. Round about 1097, the Normans started to replace their wooden kits of Motte and Bailey castles with stone buildings. If you think about the time line - we have to take a step back 900 years to even imagine what our area looked like at the time the Castle was constructed. Even the oldest maps we have, are around 700 to 800 years out of date and can't really be used in evidence to any great extent.
However, the Normans were predictable people and they stuck to set formats and processess, which does help us:-

1) Norman Castles were built on the highest ground in the area
2) Norman Castles often adjoined Rivers
3) Norman Castles often overlooked Towns and harbours
4) Norman Castles made use of existing sites of Roman or Saxon forts and Burhs

To have a Castle running off Church street in the area near St Peters, would tick boxes 1) to 3). However what about box 4)?

Well, I lived on Willow Road and my backgarden backed onto the gardens of Ivy Cottage. I found a Roman coin in my backgraden when I was 12. So I know for sure that the Romans (or at least 1 clumsy Roman) were in the vicinity of Church St. So I think this area now ticks all 4 boxes. Here is what I found in the gallery- but keep in mind these pictures are 700 to 800 years later on:-

[She]

Okay- Im on holiday so I don't want to spend too much time doing this, other than to say I had a look around this morning whilst running a few errands.

I noticed that with the exception of 1 church (St Oswalds at Winwick), all the other local churches I saw (including St Peters) seemed to have typical horizontal English lines. Its quite interesting really and if I had more time I may research it more. But alas I dont have the time.The marks left on the stone was almost like the Mason's signature. It can give away many clues.

Anyway, what I found is that this wall I refered to is not the only area that seems to contain very old & possibly Norman stone (with large crude chisel marks in a horizontal direction). I have read that the larger chisel marks indicate early medieval period, which fits in with the era we are talking about here. I noticed other areas of Newton, which had walls containing stones almost identical to the assumed Norman Stones in Willow Park. They were:-

* The wall on the other side of Church St, outside the small bungalow
* On Mill Lane, the old wall opposite Pennington Close and
* The wall around Winwick Church

All of the above contain near identical medieval (? Norman stone) - which I am guessing may come from the same source as it so identical. Could these stones all have been taken from the Castle???

Winwick church is fascinating as its a mixture of all kinds of differing stones and I wonder if its been built and re built or 'extended many times over the years. Anyway, here's a few photos and Im leaving this subject alone for a while unless anyone else has anything more to add. Here's my photos with the explanation beneath each photo. Hopefully you can clearly see the differing markings and how the stone work at St Peters is so differing to stones elsewhere.
PS: If anyone walks into Willow Park from the Church Lane entrance, take note of the gateposts on either side.

English or Norman????

[bob]

She thanks for the pictures, i am into lumps and bumps, is there a stone expert in the house!
i use paint shop pro 7.02, i have all the later versions, but still prefer this old version, now i am sure Steve can give you a better idea about it, as i can do the things he can with it, and i noticed Pods drawing on a 1839 map was very good too, Maybe Steve should do topic on it.
Bob

[Steven]

Hi She

One thing to remember is that St Peters did at one time have a road which ran all the way around it, so some of these old stones would possibly have been reused as retaining walls for the edge of that road way.

Steven Dowd

[Podstar66]

She thanks for the pictures, i am into lumps and bumps, is there a stone expert in the house!
i use paint shop pro 7.02, i have all the later versions, but still prefer this old version, now i am sure Steve can give you a better idea about it, as i can do the things he can with it, and i noticed Pods drawing on a 1839 map was very good too, Maybe Steve should do topic on it.
Bob

I use The Gimp, for my picture editing, colouring in etc, it is free and has some very good features. It is also easy-ish to use lol
I do have a version of paint shop pro and even a book to help use it, but I can never get my head round layers and overlays, it seems to get complicated really quickly. Lol

I use Irfanview for viewing my pictures, as you can do some quick and simple editing with it.

Pod

ps, She, the word is Bolt. I am guessing this is a better class of benchmark than the usual 'arrow' carved into a part of a wall or bridge.

[She]

I will give these a try as it so much easier than having to explain things.

As an aside (but on topic) - did anyone watch time team last night (Thursday 29th July)? Not sure if it was a new or older series, but it was of interest as they had found an undiscovered Norman castle.

What was interesting about this discovery, was that it was on a former Roman site. This does add weight to the fact that the Normans liked to use pre-exisitng Saxon or Roman sites. So all in all it may be a double wammy (Norman terminology for dipping an arrow head in sewage before firing, so as to either kill someone with a fatal blow instantly OR later via a slow cooking infection....an arrow was a WAM)....

It would be great to find a Norman castle, but even better to find a Roman Villa and/or Saxon castle alongside it. Something to keep in mind (double wammy). Remember the Roman coin I found in my Mums back garden. Could we also be looking for a Roman Villa off the High St/ Church St?

Also the castle they found on time team was on flat land. Highly unsusal for the Normans. However to compensate for this lack of defence it was once surrouned by a boggy area of Marchland and a river. The Normans had to have either height and/or water around their castles. So - if we didn't have the big hills around Newton - did we have the water. I wonder if Church St could have once been a river. In old pictures there are high sandstone ridges on either side of which the houses sit. Could this have been a valley carved by a river 900 years ago? Just remember that Willow Lake was artificially created. Was this once a much bigger river?
Any geologists out there????????????????????????????

[bob]

she, i dug out some pictures i have of Norman castles, here are 2 like a before and after.
Bob

perevil peak district norman castle.jpg

norman castle.jpg

[Chorlton1]

I think a natural water source is always an essential in any castle location as if you are going to be under seige holed up there for any length of time the amount of food and water you have available will determine how long you can hold out. It stands to reasons that this could be an excellent location for a castle and maybe before St Peters church was built the rocky outcrop could have been much higher but leveling for foundations and weathering over the years may have reduced it's height.

[bob]

She, i visited Kedleston Hall in Derby yesterday, at the rear of the Hall is a Norman Church, it hold some fantastic Crypts, and was probably held by the Templar's at one time, so if you are having a drive out in what is left of our great British summer and you want to see some original Norman work, try Kedleston.
Bob

norman build.jpg

[She]

Thanks Bob.

It has been "Norman season" on one of the free HD channels recently and the whole subject is fascinating. However I am equally if not more interested in the possibility of the Normans building on an ex Roman site. My Dads back garden is like a jungle at the moment but I am tempted to revisit the place with a MD and search over the area I found a Roman coin sitting on the soil over well over 30+ years ago. It may be worth a dig. There isn,t much soil left exposed as they flagged the whole place to make a patio, but the bit were the coin was found IS still exposed. Just a bit wary of digging up my budgie Peter however. If the woman who owns Ivy Cottage would let us take a look around her land that would be ideal, but I doubt she would be open to the idea. I may give my Dads garden a try however, as it backs onto the Ivy Cottage land!