Lost Roads - Chat

[bob]

Hi Ian,
can you tell me if this is the lane you talk about in Newton? i will look at the Lowton side one later on.
Bob

dual lane nlw.jpg

[Oldbiker]

Hi Bob

Thanks for your input.

No, on reflection it is the one lower down near Gallows Croft. (I must have got confused re the Bloody Stone)!. The map shows it going under the main London to Glasgow Railway and appearing to the right of the Cemetery. It used to pass the Cemetery on the left, looking at this map, and reach Park Rd by the little parade of shops.I am sure it was asphalted or concreted near the Cemetery.

The map flatters it I believe----it is poor once you emerge from the railway bridge and I wouldn't cycle down it now unless on a Mountain Bike!.

Looking forward to a comment on the Newton to Lowton " track "!

Cheers

Ian,

[Steven]

Hi Ian

I was stood on this old roadway, at the Winwick Road end last weekend, looking around the area with my father, trying to see what was left of the anciant stone bridge with a single arch, not the more recent dual concrete pipe bridge, when a man arrived, walking along with his dog, asking where the hell he was, we informed him that he was coming out onto Winwick Road by Hermitage green lane junction, and he was amazed, said he had been on Park Road just a few minutes ago, and noticed a path beside the churchyard, and wondered what was down it. He next found himself passing under the railway, then met me and my father nearto the old bridge.

So I guess the pathway is still open, and being used.

Steven Dowd

[bob]

Hi Ian, yes this section at Lowton Steve and i have gone over many times, there are some puzzling features around that area, from Steves missing cottages to my missing mill,
Ok we all know that there was a moss in the fields Newton side of the old Bulls head, and i i believe it was a tip at some point,
so a road from the mere to Lowton would have had to go through a moss,and i doubt that ever would be the case,
here is the 1849 map -

mere to bull 1849.jpg

i have shaded in blue what i think your road was, it looks like a climb out for the horses pulling the stone, but it seems to stop at the moss, so was it a drain? again the moss in this 1849 is very clear to see, but in the 1745 Tithe map it almost appers that there was no moss at all, 1745-

mere to bull 1745.jpg

other shades are the large purple area is where Steve suspects old cottages, the yellow is the staggered junction at the now Bulls Head, and in green is South WARD road, not Southworth. now i have a first edition map about 1820 modified just before the new 1849 one came out, i have had to stitch it on to the southern version (thanks pod)
in this you can see the road coming from Newton Park farm northwards to Southworth road, and even today there is a gap in the houses on the north side of the road, and what seems to be a track or road, heading in the direction of Old Woman's well,
i have marked this in Blue, i have also faintly in blue projected where a road if at all there was one would have been, there is evidence of an older Newton high street before the one we know now being within that area, but i doubt a road going to the old bulls head, but as you say the pub lies side on to Golborne Dale road which would indicate a road being there at one time, and the fact that pubs where normally on some form of cross roads, But an interesting point is that the staggered junction at the new bulls head is not staggered on this older map? 1820s -

mere to bull 1820s modded.jpg

moving on a bit later to the 1891 map, things have changed a tad, but you can still see the road i think you walked on as a lad, on this i have shaded in green where the moss should be, 1891 -

mere to bull 1891.jpg

and finally a modern MSN Ariel view, field marks can still be made out, especially the square shape which the blue lines on the other maps keep showing,

mere to bull msn.jpg

So, was there a road there, well there was certainly something as its is plain to see on maps, but did it go to the pub and then up into lowton? we will need to find out more about Newton Moss before anyone can answer that i am afraid.
Bob

[Steven]

Bob

some of the items you have just mentioned are already known, for instance the track into Newton Park Farm was not a road, from anywhere else, it was just the trademans entrance to the farm, the workers road in and out of the place

The main entrance was the front one, I have this first hand from someone whose family had worked at the farm for generations, and who was made even as a young lad in the 1920s to sweep the main drive every single day of leaves etc.

(incase it gets mentioned again, yes, I agree, that the road and bridge on this wormans entrance is called 'Stones Crossing' on the maps, but since the man who lived in the Newton Park Farm at that time was called Thomas Stone, and he was a Railway Magnet/Investor with a vested interest in the railway line going through his property, again I would suggest that Stones Crossing is just relating to the fact that its a bridge probably built or required to be built by MR Stone that went to his house. Stones Crossing doesnt exist on anything that doesnt show a railway on the same map, or from any period prior to Mr Stone living at the house or prior to the railway existing.)

Newton Moss is shown on the left hand side of the hedge line which earlier in this thread I suggested was the original route of the road, and that line was not moss, because thats why there was a SAND QUARRY later at the spot, so there was sand or very sandy soil at the edge of the Quarried area, and that is the hedgeline, so the road could travel across the area and not go into wet mossy land. So in the map which you have shown blue, all your doing is tying together the workmans entrance to hedge lines, and then avoiding the moss area, when the road as I suggested was diagnally across the field heading towards the old Bulls Head location, and joining onto the other road which went to Lowton, which has now also been moved. to the new bulls head junction.

I found a text yesterday about this area, which stated that the road originally at the old bulls head turned and went ONLY to Lowton, and that it didnt go through to Golborne, Ill post that later when I get time this evening

As for the cottages, It would make sense for there to be cottages having existed close by anywhere that there are wells, but the cottages that are mentioned as having existed by Castle Hill are suggested to have been 'opposite' the castle hill.

Unfortunatly it doesnt say which opposite, opposite on the Golborne Park Gold Club side, or opposite on the field opposite Old Womans Well?

In this case I would say for sure there must have been cottages by Old Womans well, but other than the name of the well on the maps, there isnt any mention of cottages in that valley.

There is clear mention of a road that crossed the valley from Newton to Golborne that passed under Castle Hill and forded the stream by a gravel/stone fording place and which went up into Golborne Park from Castle hill, there is a hollow in the banking opposite castle hill in the golf club side by the old boat house, which would allow for such a roadway to pass into the golborne park side, I cannot see why there would not be cottages on the sides of that road, in which case they would have been located directly 'opposite' castle hill.

If this old road was the route to Golborne, then as mentioned above there was no need for the road to golborne to cross the stream on a bridge by the old bulls head, and so that road could just have serviced Lowton

IF when the valley was flooded in 1853 to make the quarry into the lake, it would then have been impossible to use the fording place by castle hill into Golborne Park, SO its my guess that the bridge at Golborne Road by the old Bulls Head cottages, was probably built sometime at this period and the road altered at that period.

Since there is an old road / entrance into Golborne Park from that side, which seems to have run across the top of the hill just above OLd Womans Well, its probably a good guess that the road from ST Peters after fording at Castle Hill went across Golborne Park by the top of Old Womans Well, and then made its way to Golborne somewhere near the existing road.

And I would have expected cottages to have been by the side of the road, which would explain Old Womans Well.

I am not sure there would have been cottages on the Newton side of the brook opposite the well though.

I think I might move these discussions onto the other threads that I made for extra posts, then try to find time to add to the original posts in this thread.

Steven Dowd


Steven Dowd

[bob]

Yes Steve, i wasn't saying that the tradesmen or farmers entrance was a new find, we know its there!
i was using it as a guide to place the other blue line road opposite in context,
my opinion is that the Tithe map just showed the area cut up into sections, and that the moss was there even then,
i myself think there at one time was a track heading towards the moss from the quarry, and maybe they was dumping all sorts of waste in there to help drain it, maybe this went on up until recently, so no i do not think there was a road to Lowton at that point, but i do think there was one a bit north near to old woman's well.
Bob

[Oldbiker]

Hi Bob and Steve

Thank you for your observations and helpful conclusions. I know that in about 1953 I walked across the field in a line with the Bull Cottages, walked over the London to Glasgow Railway, and quickly picked up a good track that led onto Mere Rd. Maybe this was the filled in pit and used as a cart road? One of the lads who was with me lived in Golborne Dale Rd and now lives in South America. I will em him to see whether he can enlighten in any way.

Cheers for now

Ian

[She]

Hi Bob
Re the acute angle of the bend on Parkside Road: I travel down this road many times a day between Lowon and Warrington and something occured to me this evening when travelling home. So - I have just gone onto Google maps to check this out and I think I could have a theory or sorts. I say of sorts...so I will probably be proven wrong but here goes anyway.

Thanks to this super site, I have learned that one can tell the differance between old roads and new roads in that newer roads cut through the existing field patterns (borders) with little care or respect. I guess the A580 (or East Lancs to some) is an example of a new road cutting through fields. If you travel down the East lancs you will see a hedgerow on the left which clearly once connected to the hedgerow to the right.

I understand that the more ancient roads worked their way around the field patterns (borders) and/or river systems.
If you look at the hybrid Google map of this area of Parkside (which I am sure you have done a zillion times), you can clearly see that this area is full of older roads which follow the pattern of the field parameters. The A573 (Parkside/Golborne Road) amongst many others nearby seem to have followed the line of the fields and by Stevens thesis are old roads. So maybe the question one should be asking is not, why the road bends at such an acute angle, but rather - why are the fields shaped the way they are to make the roads bend around them.

To begin with, if the road did carry straight on it would have gone straight through what some to believe was St Oswalds well and a Saints final resting place. Maybe this was the reason.
OR- the road bends when it meets the Mill House. If this was a mill, maybe the owners objected to a road going through their place and this was the reason. If the Mill had a water Mill, maybe there was a river at the rear and the road had to bend to avoid the river - could this be the reason.


However if you look at the field patterns, there is a straight line from what is now Winwick roundabout to the parameters of Parkside collery - so could the farmer of Woodside simply have said "no" to the road cutting through his land and made the road follow the other straight boundary line I have just mentioned.Seems logical to me and no big mystery. However I stand to be corrected!

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&sourc ... 5&t=h&z=16

[Steven]

Hi She

What you have noticed is good, but In that area, I think the road maybe even didn't go over the hill past the wood head farm, I am not sure that wood head farm is as old as we might think, my guess is that the main roads in the hermitage green area were probably passing through past the pub and mostly going east to west, from Southworth Hall towards Bradley Hall in Burtonwood, taking various routes which went around fields both sides of the Hermitage 'green' and the pub and then along hermitage green lane and over the stone bridge at red bank towards Old Hey Hall and then Bradley Hall at burtonwood via a ford across the Sankey River probably near to the 'Red House' or opposite the site of the Sankey Sugar Works site.

On the 1849 map there are some clear old footpaths marked, which are wide enough to be narrow lanes (probably were old lanes) which joined Back lane (now called Waterworks Lane) and High Field Lane to the east of the hermit pub to the hermitage green lane infront of the pub.

Also the current road from the pub and around the bends you mention heading north, when you turn left as you cross the motorway bridge and head towards the Bulls Head, there seems to be a clear old route which seems to go straight on at the Motorway Bridge, taking a more true straight line towards Lowton, zig zagging around fields, cutting across the Moss and heading towards Stone Cross Lane and Heath Lane, it joins barrow lane first, and then it joins at a point where there used to be an old corner on Barrow Lane and where currently there seems to be a passing spot on the narrow road

In fact there are almost as many small road ways / old cart / foot paths in the hermitage green lane / highfield moss / lowton area as there are fields.

The current road from Winwick to the Bulls Head, on the north of the Hermitage Green basically seems to respect the extent of the old Deer park, it curves across the fields just on the outside of the old park, but at the Bulls head end it seems to have been re-routed, so that it turns left and crosses the railway bridge by the Huskisson memorial, probably it was re-routed here at the time the railways were being built.

The old deer park (Newton Park Farm) is quite noticible on the old maps, because the field system within the newton parkside area is made up of much larger fields than the fields on the opposite sides of the roads which adjoin it, It seems a fair conclusionthat the locals were kept out, and the fields didn't get down sized, trimmed or split up to suite the family sizes of the persons allowed to farm them.

(With regards to the Mill House you mention which is by the roadside on the corner at Hermitage Green, this house nor any mill on the site clearly didn't exist pre the early 1900s, I stand by the idea that its just a 'doneroamin' type house name. )

Steven Dowd

[She]

Thats just what I was about to say as well Steven!

Being serious for a second- actually the thought did occur to me that Golborne road (as in an ancient byway) - simply went to St Oswalds Well area and stopped there. Maybe the bend was just the end of the road before it was ever a bend? I get that! There is a footpath on the bend to the right (if one was facing Bulls Head Direction), and I can see how there may have also been a road to the left following the field pattern.

Perhaps people just wanted to visit this area and then go home, rather than carry on to Lowton? Maybe the end object of some of these roads near Hermitage was to just go there as a pilgrimage or whatever and then go back!

As another matter of interest but concerning the same subject, using my new National Trust membership I went to visit Dunham Massey Hall this weekend. If you go in the main gallary, there are about 8 pictures hanging on the wall which look like a 17th century version of Google Earth. Not joking! The painter imagined himself looking down at the area from a height and captured the Vista of not just Dunham Massey, but the entire landscape for miles and miles around from Derbyshire to Wales. It is an amazing stretch of imagination and I have never seen pictures like this before personally. I think the dates are pre hot air ballons, so how on earth they were painted is a mystery.

However how this connects to this thread, is that it does show some old road systems. It seems that some roads were designed with thought and deliberation (Roman roads are a good example) whilst some roads happened by accident (as in a massive pot holes appears in the road and the carts have to drive around it rather than through it and before you know, you have a bend). What these aerial pictures painted circa 1650 to 1790 show, is a network of designed roads and they all seem to spiral out from a central point in a well organised wheel spoke system. So maybe it is not a long shot to say that several roads were designed to go straight to this popular area of worship near St Ozzys Well and they may have all have met at the extreme bend in the road. Perhaps the locals encouraged these visits as they could make money selling bits of holy soil or whatever. As you say (I think) the rest of the road up to the Bulls head may have been a later extension or after thought? If they created the road from the Bulls head, they may have ended up at ST Ozzys well and realised they had missed a bit and didn't quite hook up to the original Golborne road, so they had to dig a sharp right to join up with the original road in respect of the farmers boundary lines. Maybe?????????

Why do you think the bend exists...anyone?

[Steven]

I think She, that the bends are just typical of 'old english' roads, that they just go around the old field or property boundries

The bit of land on the Mill Stone Pub side of the bends is a little higher and probably would have been a good place to live and farm, so I guess the bends literally just go around the edge of the old field or properties that were looking out onto the Hermitage Green.

Ref St Oswalds Well, and people visiting it, I have found this interesting snippet of info in C Coles, History of Newton in Makerfield Book. 1916.

A few yards of the roadside, an ancient well—needing some protection— which
has been known from time immemorial by the name of St. Oswald's Well.
Bede seems to account for the original formation of this excavation when he
says that the place in which St. Oswald fell fighting for his faith and for his
country, and on account of which he was no doubt canonized, was celebrated
in his time for restoring health to men and beasts, and that so many persons
carried away the earth where his body had lain, to avail themselves of its
miraculous power, that a hole, or fosse, as large as a man's body was formed
in the ground.

The repute of this holy well has continued to our own times,a nd
we read that an aged man, Henry Roughley, who resided near the spot the
greater part of his life, and who died akout the year 1830, at the age of 75,
used to relate that in his youth he received three shillings annually from an
old Roman Catholic lady in Newton, for keeping it free from weeds, that the
water obtained from it for the surrounding Catholic Chapels might be free
from contamination.

Two things,

1/ This suggests that the hole was enlarged by the pilgrims taking of soil samples to a size no-more than a mans body, and so Mark Olly's suggestion that the giant hole at the side of the pipers hole cottage might be due to pilgrims taking soil samples might be in doubt.

2/ This does seem to prove there have been ongoing local religious beliefs that the Well is indeed blessed or that it is somehow sacred, and shows that the water from the well was collected for religious purposes at least into the 1760s.

Steven dowd

[She]

I don't really want to wobble too much from the subject of old roads as I do think it is a fascinating subject. Roads tell us where people want to go to and where they have come from, (and maybe what got in the way en-route), so I think they do paint a picture of the past which is fascinating for anyone who loves history and likes to imagine what this area was like centuries before.

However.....a tiny wobble off subject. I agree with what you have said re Pipers Hole Steven. Like Mark Olly I often wondered why the field opposite St Oswalds Well was so deep and appeared unnaturally so. That was until about a year ago, when I reached my own conclusions about this field...which does apear to have been dug out by the hand of man.

I spend a heck of a lot of time sat in a car driving all over England and a fair amount of that is sat in a traffic jam with little else to do but look out of the window and peruse the countryside. I started to notice something which appeared common farming practice...and it took me a little while to work it out, but then the M6 is patient and gave me oddles of time to gaze out of the window. It seems that farmers of live stock (cattle, sheep, cows...and possibly goats), dig out little shelves and holes in the fields for the animals to shelter under. It may even be that it wasn't the farmers who did this.

I took my dogs to Formby point on a hot day and even they dug holes in the sand to lie in and cool down.
It seems that animals who belong to the group known as artiodactyla (cloven hoof), do a heck of a lot of digging.They often dig near a fence...to get out and goats are the worst for this. As grazing animals they are vulnerable to preditors, so often dig ridges where they are out of sight in order to give birth. Pipers Hole has been the home to goats as far as I can remember, so this would fit.

The roads around Winwick have names like Pilgrim Close, Church Walk, Rectory Lane, Rectory Close, the Priory etc. The names of roads are also important as they often describe their purpose. Winwick was certainly an area of religious significance. I am not sure how old Hermitage Green Lane is, and I don’t know if the area it led up to was once called “Hermitage Green”. Wikipedia says “Hermitage Green, is a hamlet near the village of Winwick in Cheshire. So if this area we are talking about was called Hermitage Green – it just adds to the religous significance of this entire area and its former importance. People would have wanted to travel here and I guess a road system would have been required.

Hermitage (religious retreat), hermit's dwelling place, a place of relaxing retreat


End of wobble and back to roads...

[bob]

Well while we are wobbling off track a little.... i was thinking of starting a new topic for Google map or earth fans,
and i may very well do that very soon, but for now as She as mentioned that Winwick was a religious site i thought i will put up this little enhancement of a Google shot of a field in Winwick, it seems to be a circle ( a very large one at that) i asked Mark what he thought it was before he shot off to Peru, he seemed very excited about it, ( i could tell because of the drool on my keyboard) he seems to think it could be the site of a religious gathering and he will look at it in more detail on hes return,
so i have decided to throw it open to the floor, i myself can make out the circle but i am in 2 minds what it was - or is,
i will put up the view you see from Google, then the one clarified, discussion welcome -
Oh i suggest on the lower one that you draw away from your screen slightly as on my monitor i seem to get a better idea of the much larger circle around it, or maybe i am seeing things.
Bob

Image1.jpg

Image5.jpg

[She]

Yep I can see the circle and I think that its in the field of my taxi drivers mate as well. So we may be okay to go there for a look-see.

[bob]

Well i think it would be a waste of time taking the metal detectors, anyone got a ground radar?
its a strange feature, i am just not sure at all, it is huge, if and when i get any more info i shall add it.
Bob