Roads & Mills

[bob]

carrying on the Roads thread,
back to old Haydock, whilst i was looking on the old 1849 map,
i noticed Penny Lane house under magnification it seems like there is a gate across the road, i wonder if thats why it was called Penny lane, would anyone know if there was a tollgate there at one time, could the toll be there to pay for the road built as we know it today,
bob

[She]

Thanks Bob. Irs always hard to read into something so complicated where you (or anyone else for that matters) knows exactly what you (they) are talking about and the rest of us don't!

Pod uploaded a photo on the "where am I" post of a lane in a wood which I thought was Wiswalls Lane. Have you ever been there? Looks very similar to Pods photo, but it does seem to be the lane to the square in the map. The East Lancs has cut it in half now, but it does go as far as the east Lancs and the other side of it looks as though it would have lead to where the posher Haydock hotel now stands (not the Holiday Inn one) but the Thistle/ Copthorne as was. Does that make any sense?

[Podstar66]

Bob,
The arrow you used to point to the 'gate' across the road, looks like it is pointing at one of the benchmark arrows that are used on maps for heights above sea level etc.

She,
It is not Wiswalls in my picture, and though that is only a stones throw from me, I have not actually had a wander round there.

Maybe I should!

Pod

[bob]

The arrow you used to point to the 'gate' across the road, looks like it is pointing at one of the benchmark arrows that are used on maps for heights above sea level etc.

don't think so pod, it not really visible to the naked eye, i only noticed it when i magnified it on the PC.
Bob

[Podstar66]

It is a benchmark Bob. On the 1891, and 1908 maps on this site the benchmark arrow is shown in the same location. In fact on the 1849 map you posted there is BM 160.5 just above the word 'well'.
The puzzle I find, is that on the 1891 map it is down to 158.0, and come the 1908 map the BM is now down to 153.0
I wonder what it is now ?
It may be hard to find now, as it appears to be under the East Lancs Road bridge.

Pod

[bob]

Pod, your right, i never knew that!
when i looked at the later maps they have made the arrows more clear,
imagine they use the same selected houses to take level readings over the years, well you live and learn,
why do you think the levels have changed, is it subsidence or sea levels changing,
i still think that penny lane house may have been more than just a roadside house, not many others have such a similar road cutting into it,
the arrow may not have been a gate, but i will still put money on it being at one time a tollbar.
Bob

[ps68060]

Here (eventually) is the photo of Sandup Farm on Newton Road. I was curious as one doesn't often see a barn like building with a chimney or funnel. I was wondering if this looked like some sort of a Mill.
Any theories anyone?

That building has some interesting features.

There seems to be a discontinuity between the brickwork of the arches and the upper floor. Could it be that the arches were added later or that the upper floor was added ?

The gable end seems continuous but maybe that was added after something else was removed or just repaired ?

[Steven]

I bought a postcard yesterday, which amazingly shows Red Bank Mill clearly, I didn't think that any photos existed of this mill

bridge-and-mill.jpg

This section of the postcard shows the old Stone Bridge at Red Bank, and in the background, stands the Red Bank Mill.

red-bank-mill.jpg

This larger section of the postcard shows the Mill, and its easy to see the Mill is built across the stream, the arched brickwork can be seen clearly.

The postcard is by Rowland King, and is dated on the postmark 1906

This map shows the location of the Red Bank Mill,



it shows that it straddled a diverted section of the stream that passed by the mill

Steven Dowd

[bob]

Steve and all, if we carry on down the Red Bank Mill stream, or Newton Brook, we are still in the realms of Newton, Winwick, and Burtonwood, i have noticed something on the much older maps that i was completely unaware of, that is a missing mill which in my calculations would have sat behind the Winwick secure hospital, this has come about by noticing the brook from Newton had its own path to Mill Lane Winwick, On the Yates map 2 mills can be made out the one to the south can be easily placed at the cross roads on the Winwick Quay estate, so i spent a few hours trying to follow the path of the old stream on Google Earth on to be more confused by the Hennet map, this actually shows 2 streams, (see the pictures), now i am also putting in a link to Pastscape which pinpoints the area as having a Field system, this is where the Roman Road is suppose to Vere slightly, so we have all this information now, does this lead us to yet another missing medieval or even Roman settlement that has been eradicated from history? was it in fact destroyed by the civil war! or maybe by the land enclosure act, much has been written about Winwick - Hulme - Arbury - Middleton - Southworth, but no mention of a village at this point, was it in fact part of Winwick, or part of Newton, as it is on the East side of the Sankey i would doubt it being attached to Bradley at Burtonwood,
also on the Hennet map, a road can be seen from the Hall area to the Locke area, this seems to have gone now.
My question is, what was the mill called? has any reference to it been noted,
Bob

http://pastscape.english-heritage.org.u ... id=1031511

yates.jpg

Hennet.jpg

Google Link
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?t=h&hl=en ... 06856&z=17

[Podstar66]

If you look at the c1831 map on here, you will see it is similar to the 1818 Hennet map, around the Winwick area.

I think the mills (shown in orange) are more likely in the positions shown on the following map.

..Newton_Area_1831- winwick crop52.jpg

I have drawn in red, where I think Mill Lane now runs.
The road running out of the former Winwick Hospital grounds (in green), towards the last 'n' in Warrington( and Newton Railway), I think is now a row of trees.
The Warrington & Newton railway line, that heads off to Newton (shown in pink/purple), is most likely a proposed route. The actual route veered off further north, near Alder Root Farm, and just below the Vulcan village.

The topmost of the 2 unknown mills, I guess to be around the Winwick Lock area.

Pod

[bob]

Hi, yes i think your about right there, in this google shot it is clear there was at some time water management going on,
maybe the water in the fields are the remains of mill ponds and leats, it is also most likely the road from Winwick hall, did at one time go down to the canal. here is a bit of a best guess picture of where the mill may have been in the area.
o and on the 1831 map, again the streams seem to come from nowhere?
Bob

pods mill site2.jpg

[bob]

After writing about no written evidence of a mill in Winwick, i find this on British History online,
below there mention of a mill. -

Two charters relating to the township are contained among the Legh of Lyme deeds in Raines' MSS. (Chet. Lib.), xxxviii, 393: (1) Robert de Winwick released to Gilbert de Haydock all his claim to four oxgangs in Hulme, being a fourth part of the vill, which Hugh de Haydock had formerly purchased from him, the said Gilbert having given Robert 40s. 'in his great need.' (2) John the clerk of Hulme granted to Hugh son of John de Haydock, in free marriage with Margery his daughter, two messuages in Hulme and a croft called Flaxhalgh.
Henry de Hulme granted a house for a rent of 4d. payable at Halton Fair; Towneley MS. GG, no. 997. William son of John de Hulme granted to Robert, 'called Robin,' land between that of Robert de Holland and Hugh de Hulme.
In 1276 Simon the Messer, of Warrington, claimed four oxgangs of land in Hulme against Richard de Haydock, and other messuages, &c. against Robert the Smith, Austin vicar of Winwick, Richard de Houghton, Hugh son of John de Haydock, and others; De Banco R. 15, m. 15 d.; 17, m. 84 d.
At the same time the vicar (rector) of Winwick had leave to withdraw his plea against Thurstan de Holland and other tenants in Hulme; Assize R. 405. He proceeded against William son of John and others respecting three oxgangs of land of which he alleged his predecessor Robert was seised in the time of Henry III, Henry de Sefton having taken possession after Robert's death on the allegation that they were a lay fee; De Banco R. 18, m. 15; 19, m. 54 d. William son of John called the Prior of Nostell to warrant him.
Margery, widow of Robert de Kinknall, who claimed dower in two oxgangs in Golborne against Robert Banastre, also claimed lands in Hulme against Peter the chaplain and others—including Austin the vicar—in respect of four oxgangs of land; De Banco R. 20, m. 15d, 26 d.
Austin the vicar prosecuted his claim against Robert de Holland respecting three oxgangs in Hulme, and William de Aintree, on being called to warrant, averred that his father Henry died seised, the charter to Thurstan, father of Robert de Holland, never having been executed; De Banco R. 23, m. 21; 28, m. 41; 30, m. 33.
In 1292 John son of Hugh de Hulme claimed an oxgang in Hulme from John the vicar of Winwick, but did not prosecute it; Assize R. 408, m. 21. In 1313 John de Bamburgh, then rector, claimed six messuages and three oxgangs in Winwick from John son of Hugh de Hulme, who called John, Prior of Nostell, to warrant him, alleging that he held by charter of Henry de Aberford, a former prior; De Banco R. 199, m. 37 d.; 207, m. 108; 212, m. 431 d.
It should be remembered that Henry de Sefton represented the Alfred de Ince of 1212, and that William de Aintree was a Haydock. John de Chisenhale, rector of Winwick, asserted in 1334 that William le Boteler of Warrington and others had disseised him of a mill and certain lands in Winwick. In reply it was urged that John was 'vicar,' not 'parson,' of Winwick, but in general the jury sustained his claim. William le Boteler, grandfather of the defendant, had purchased from Richard son of Hugh de Hulme an acre of land in Winwick, from olden time arable; Coram Rege R. 297, m. 6 d.

From: 'Townships: Winwick with Hulme', A History of the County of Lancaster: Volume 4 (1911), pp. 140-142. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=41395 Date accessed: 20 June 2010.

[bob]

Silly Question but, has anyone got a tithe map of Winwick or know where i can get one.
Bob

[bob]

Just a reminder that we had merged the Google Maps thread into this topic, but we found it to be confusing with the other Old Roads topic, along with this Roads and Mills topic, so if you are looking for something, and can not find it in here please try the other Roads topic, and the Google maps topic.
Bob

[bob]

Steve, going back to this picture >>

2_redbank_2.jpg

cop holt road.jpg

Could it have been that at one time the road from warrington to Newton went past cop holt farm, and red bank farm?
Bob